Multi Story Edinburgh

Episode 76: Class of 2023 - Katherine, LLB Law

• The University of Edinburgh • Season 5 • Episode 4

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For episode 76, Andrew talks to Katherine about studying in a different country, being on multiple society committees at once and the laws of self-defence.

Katherine talks about being Co-President of the Edinburgh division of Lawyers Without Borders, who are on Instagram at lwobedinburgh . She was also President of Edinburgh University Taiwan Society which is also on Instagram at etss.tw .

Season 5 is titled All Roads Lead to Edinburgh. Here, we take our 2023 graduates 5 years into an ideal future and ask them where they would like to be, and how they would return to Edinburgh if presented the chance to give a speech to the new student cohort.

All opinions expressed are those of the individual and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Edinburgh.

Multi Story Edinburgh has been created and produced by the Alumni Relations team at the University of Edinburgh. If you are interested in telling your story, please get in touch and let’s talk!

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Andrew:

Hello everybody. I'm your student host Andrew and I am here for Multi Story Edinburgh Season Five: All Roads Lead to Edinburgh. Each episode in this series is a snapshot inside our graduates minds and a memento of their time at Edinburgh University. But this time we are chatting the law of the land with my guest this week, Katherine Liu. Katherine has just graduated from the University of Edinburgh in the class of 2023 with a degree in law, but she has done much more than that. She has been the President of the Taiwan society, Co-President of Lawyers without Borders, and she is now my next welcome guest on Multi Story Edinburgh. Today, Katherine will be travelling five years into the future where the economy is exploding, maybe vintage clothing now includes skinny jeans, and Katherine has been invited back to Edinburgh on an all-expenses trip to give a welcome week talk to the new first years. I will be your guide through Katherine's journey, delving into her Edinburgh experiences and finding another example of how all roads lead to Edinburgh. But before we do that, I remind you first that Multi Story Edinburgh is not the only way you can engage with us. In our online meeting place, Platform One, you can connect with members of our Edinburgh community, including students, alumni and staff. And if you're a recent graduate, watch out for a regular digital newsletter, and head to www.ed.ac.uk forward slash alumni forward slash new graduates with a hyphen in between new and graduates, where you can catch up on resources, opportunities, and careers advice or you can discover alumni networks and clubs that you can join. I do have a quick note before we start the episode though, during the recording, we had a little bit of lag on the recording platform and as a result, this episode is a little shorter than the rest of the series. Also, my big podcast microphone was also not working. So I was using my laptop mic, but it did start working again at some point. So my challenge to you is to figure out when it starts to work again. Oh, court is now in session. So let's begin. This is Multi Story Edinburgh, season five, class of 2023. This is Katherine Liu. Welcome to the podcast. Katherine. How are you doing today?

Katherine:

I'm doing really well. Thank you. How about you?

Andrew:

Yeah, I'm good. Thanks. So you were a law student? How many years does that take to study?

Katherine:

So it's four years of undergrad, and then I have one year post-grad like a diploma? I guess total like five years.

Andrew:

So five. And that's you completed all five now?

Katherine:

No, so I just finished undergrad. So I'm gonna be starting my postgraduate diploma this fall.

Andrew:

I suppose I've never - I've never really spoken someone who does law before. Are you meant to specialize in some part of law? Like halfway through? Or does everyone study quite

Katherine:

Yeah, I think it depends on how you see it. So in similar things? first and second year, we all do basically the same subjects, because that's kind of like required by the Law Society of Scotland, and then in third and fourth years, we get to pick like specific courses that we want to do. So you could tailor that to what you want to specialize in maybe or whatever area of interest you have. But overall you graduate with like just a general like law degree. You don't get Law with your specialism or anything.

Andrew:

Okay. Did did you specialize, or did you go for quite broad modules?

Katherine:

I think I kind of specialized a little bit. So I focused a lot on technology and AI like robotics, neuroscience - I did kind of do that. But then that was my third year. And then in fourth year, I kind of went pretty broad: I did child law, I did Street Law, like it was quite a variation. So yes and no.

Andrew:

Yes and no. Yeah. But the technology and AI part sounds quite interesting. What kind of stuff is involved in that?

Katherine:

Uhm, so I focused on kind of like just how robotics and the law, like, kind of intertwines, and how AI could impact the law in the future. Yeah, it was stuff about drones and stuff about like AIs making whiskies, like, it was pretty interesting to be honest.

Andrew:

Yeah, I mean, pretty cool. I think, obviously, AI is advancing quite quickly, so... There's been somebody who's like, the creator of AI I think, and he was like stop, please stop developing AI. It's gonna go to far or something.

Katherine:

Its kinda scary, but I think there's a lot of benefits to it. As long as people use it ethically I think.

Andrew:

Yes. So I think we'll just go straight into it now, and you're here on Multi Story Edinburgh. And this season is slightly different to what we've done in previous seasons. And we're going to set you into the future five years, see how you would come back to Edinburgh if you got given the opportunity to, so I'll set the scene for you now. We are in the future. Five years on from now, the economy has boomed and so the university has surprised you with an all expenses trip back to Edinburgh to give the new first years an induction talk. So we could say that in five years, human rights are hopefully getting better, we'll be in a new parliament session, and who knows, maybe we've had another four prime ministers in these five years. Welcome to the future, Katherine. The important thing I want to know now that we are in

Katherine:

Thank you. this future, five years on, is where are you? What are you hoping to do in five years time? So for me, I'll have one more year of postgraduate, so... and then that'll be giving me like four years left. I should hopefully be in the early stages of just qualifying as a solicitor, because it takes two years of training after the postgraduate diploma, so I would only be two years post qualified in five years time. So I'll be pretty early on in my career. Hopefully, I would have qualified into a practice area that I'm really interested in and that I love what that area is - I'm not sure yet at the moment, I'm keeping my options quite broad.

Andrew:

Is this what you thought you wanted to do when you were younger? Did you think you'd want to be a lawyer?

Katherine:

No, definitely not. I feel like, I'm not one of those

people who are like:

" Oh, I've always known I wanted to be a lawyer." Like that actually never occurred to me. I had no idea what I wanted to do. I was actually really interested in history coming into uni. So I guess that kind of naturally gravitated me towards a law degree, in a sense, because the skills that you use for like analysis, for example, are quite similar. My parents would really only pay for it. But then thankfully, like, after I started, like actually doing a law degree, I really, really enjoyed it. I think my kind of interest in the law really developed organically throughout uni. So I think that that's a good thing. But yeah, no, I definitely didn't know that I wanted to become a lawyer. When I was younger, I had no idea actually, like, I was like,"marine biologists!" at one point. So yeah.

Andrew:

That's a very different path to go down. If you wanted to be a marine biologist.

Katherine:

Yeah, I just really liked whales. I don't know. But I'm also deeply afraid of them. I'm glad I didn't become a marine biologist.

Andrew:

You obviously... you applied to do law, did you only apply for law? or were there other things you applied to? And then law was one that you chose...

Katherine:

Um, I applied for law and history and I guess the reason I chose law was just because, you know, traditionally, it's like, the more better route like, just from a very traditional sense. Though, like, my very Asian parents were very against me going all the way across the world to get a history degree. So they definitely pushed me towards law. But like I said, like, I'm glad that it worked out for me, like imagine I actually hated it. And that would have been really bad. No, I'm glad that I chose law.

Andrew:

Yeah. Well, you just said there, you've traveled halfway across the world to study this. Why Edinburgh then of all places, if you were going to go abroad?

Katherine:

I think that I've always known that I wanted to come to the UK. I could have picked like, the US or Canada, which I did apply to but ultimately, I just liked the UK more. I don't know, I just liked the vibe more. And like I said, I really liked history. And obviously the UK is such a culturally like historically rich country. I don't know. It was just the vibe. I don't know, I really liked the city as a whole.

Andrew:

Oh, I was exactly the same. I mean, I- I'm from Scotland so tuition fees is kind of restricted where I wanted to go. How has it been sort of studying, well quite far away from your family?

Katherine:

Yeah, it's definitely been hard sometimes, especially during COVID, just like, not seeing them and all these things like happening, and just keeping up with things through headlines- I think that that was a bit stressful for me and knowing that I wasn't able to just go back and see them because of all these like restrictions and quarantining. But I think that I'm glad that I did it because being away from family means that I was just able to develop more independently, organically, and just being able to be myself. There's good and bad, but definitely more good. Yeah, no, I definitely miss them. And I think that now with graduation and being settled here, for the foreseeable future, anyway, it definitely got a bit harder because back when I was 18, I didn't really think about moving away from home permanently. I just thought like, oh, it's gonna be fun. Now graduated though. I'm like Oh, like I won't be able to fly back as much. And but yeah, you make some sacrifices, I guess.

Andrew:

Was there a point when COVID started hitting that you considered going back home?

Katherine:

Yeah, I think when it first broke out, like everybody was scrambling to get home, especially like the international students and I was one of those people. So I was able to move home for basically, once it started, like breaking out. So I was home for maybe, like six months, I don't know, just over the summer. But I chose to come back because I didn't really want to do uni at home. Because I only have four years; I wasn't gonna spend one of those years, like back home. So my mom drove me crazy at one point, but it's okay.

Andrew:

Just for the listeners, because I don't think we've mentioned it, where is home for you?

Katherine:

It's complicated. I'm from Taiwan but my family is currently based in Singapore so during COVID, I did fly back to Singapore, because that's where all my family were. But it depends. It could permanently be back in Taiwan now, depending on where my parents are going to be based. And so yeah, but home right now is both Taiwan and Singapore.

Andrew:

Nice. So your parents are based in Singapore? Is that where you grew up? Or did you grow up in Taiwan?

Katherine:

Yeah, I grew up in Singapore. It was really nice, very multicultural. It's like summer all year round there, though. So I was really glad to come to Scotland because it's cold. And I definitely prefer the cold.

Andrew:

Interesting that you say you like the cold. I'm much the same; I do prefer the cold apart from those, you know, like two weeks of summer that you actually get to be hot. It's nice for that time, but it sets off my allergies. In this future, where do you want to be in five years? You said you are going to be in your junior years as a solicitor but is there a city you have in mind?

Katherine:

Um, I think so right now I have an offer for a firm, well they're like an international firm, but I have an offer for their Edinburgh-Glasgow offices. So there's a pretty big likelihood I will be just based back in Edinburgh or Glasgow. But I would also be open to kind of maybe applying for jobs in London. I'm not sure yet. I'm just gonna see how training goes and how I'm enjoying it. But realistically, it's going to be Edinburgh. Yeah.

Andrew:

You've got this offer, though, that you're doing a post grad at the same time. How does that work?

Katherine:

Yeah, so law firms, they recruit typically one to two years in advance. So you get the offer first, and then they would typically kind of sponsor you throughout your diploma year. And then you start after your diploma.

Andrew:

I didn't realize that that's how they did it - to recruit you first, before you've actually graduated. Well, well done, though. In this future, though, you're coming back to do a talk to the first years, but the university is going to cover your transport for you. How do you like to travel?

Katherine:

See if climate change wasn't a thing, I would be going all out. But it is a very serious, serious thing and so I will be taking the train. I will be in economy getting the train. I do like train rides. It's very nice. It's very peaceful for me. And I usually travel quite late so I'm not stressed about like getting a luggage spa or anything. So yeah, I think the train would be my preferred mode of transportation.

Andrew:

So fair. I've done the train to London once I think. It goes a lot quicker than you think it would.

Katherine:

I know. Yeah, it is four and a half hours compared to an hour on the... on the plane. But at least I can bring my liquids with me and all my skincare products so it's fine, I think.

Andrew:

You're so right there. We are in this future and it's all expenses covered. Would you upgrade to first class?

Katherine:

No, definitely. Like, I like my space.

Andrew:

Are you one of these people that likes to sit in the quiet coach if you can?

Katherine:

Yes. Oh my god. I cannot deal with crying babies for four hours. Like that's just not me. Like even my head... my noise cancelling headphones don't work so yeah, definitely quiet coach.

Andrew:

I literally only just discovered the quiet coach - which is weird because I'm 22 but I've never used it because normally I've like traveled with family or with somebody else. I'm not normally in it because I do like to talk to people while I'm on.

Katherine:

You should have discovered that sooner.

Andrew:

I think I will be traveling in the quiet coach from now on because, especially when traveling on my own, I actually don't talk, I say no words while I'm on the train. It's so much better. Yeah, I feel... I feel enlightened to the quiet coach. It's literally a discovery this year. You are sitting in the train, we'll say its first class. Let's see, you know, let's say that we've got first class and quiet coach first class, because that means it's all of the benefits and none of the chat. But you realize that this is your first time back to Edinburgh in five years since your graduation. How are you feeling having graduated from your undergrad?

Katherine:

I think it's like a mixture of just being so proud of myself, because obviously, having COVID happen and also being away from home, like it's quite difficult sometimes. Like, I think some people overlook how hard it can be to be like an international student on your own kind of in this new city, with very different cultural norms, very different people. So it was definitely hard, but also just feeling scared, because, you know, the future is uncertain, like what I've said before, about not being able to kind of see my parents and my family as much anymore. So yeah, but it's definitely like a big transition kind of period right now, where everything is changing, people are moving away, like, you know, people are off doing different things. And yeah, I think it's very hard to cope with sometimes, but I'm getting there. I am getting there one day at a time.

Andrew:

Well, tell me about your your final year of studies then, did you have to do a dissertation?

Katherine:

Yeah, I had to do a dissertation in law. The whole process was quite smooth for me. I have heard different stories from my friends because I think that in the law school anyway, it can be quite dependent on like the supervisor that you get. So your like dissertation experience, could be like, it just varies based on who you get as your supervisor. But I was quite lucky, my supervisor was really helpful. And we had regular meetings. So I was pretty on track, like the whole year to finish my dissertation, like by the deadline.

Andrew:

Yeah. What did you do your dissertation in?

Katherine:

My one was on the international law of self-defense. So there's this whole area of law that governs kind of when... yeah it governs when countries can kind of like legally start a war or start like a conflict.

Andrew:

Wow.

Katherine:

So my whole thing was talking about drones as well. So incorporating the, like technology angle into it. And I just basically argued that, obviously, it shouldn't be expanded. And I threw, I threw in like an Eastern perspective, because a lot of like, scholarships right now surrounding that area is very focused on the US and, you know, just Western kind of doctrines. And so I wanted to bring in kind of like an Eastern perspective to it.

Andrew:

Yeah, making sure that everything gets brought to light in this conversation and it's not just Western I think is quite important there.

Katherine:

Yeah, for sure.

Andrew:

You've arrived to give your speech to the new first years, what would you say to the new first years coming into uni?

Katherine:

I think I would say, as cliche as it is, like, you kind of get out what you've put into it. Like how you want your uni experience to be, like, it's completely just up to you. And for me, like I was quite proactive and kind of meeting people and joining societies. I was president of like Edinburgh Taiwanese society, I also Co-President of another like law school society. And I was pretty involved. I think, at least for the first third years of my degree. Fourth year, I was more chilled out because I wanted to focus on my dissertation. So I think I would just say, put yourself out there, you know, like, don't... don't be shy. I know, it's definitely easier said than done, especially if someone is like an introvert. But everyone is in the same boat. When you first start uni, everybody would more likely than not want to be friends and want to make friends. So just put yourself out there. Don't be shy. Join the societies and run for positions in committees. Sometimes it feels like it's not worth it. But it's good for the CV and you definitely develop like the soft skills that you need.

Andrew:

Yeah. You mentioned there that you were Co-President of a law society, which one was that?

Katherine:

It was lawyers without borders - the Edinburgh student division. It was quite fun. It's like a research based society - there's events and research. I was kind of more in charge of the running events part of it. Yeah.

Andrew:

It sounds like quite a full on position to go for. Did you go straight to President or did you kind of, you know, spend your time somewhere else first before going on to it?

Katherine:

Yeah, so for that society, I was director of marketing before in my second year, and then I became co president in third year, but for the Taiwanese society, I went straight to President in second year, I believe.

Andrew:

Oh, wow. So you... you were Taiwanese president in second year, that's quite, it's quite a big thing to do in second year. Obviously, you have a bit more time than third and fourth year to do it but you know, well done for getting voted in as president in your second year. That's quite a tricky thing to do.

Katherine:

Yeah, it was, it was an intense race. But I think I won by like two votes.

Andrew:

So you've done a lot, I think it's fair to say. And you said in the fourth year that you, you know, then took a step back to focus on your studies. What advice would you give to fourth years coming in this year about to start the final year?

Katherine:

I think just be organized. I think that's the biggest thing, especially with this patient, if you're doing one and just like, it's like a whole year long. So you don't want to end up in a position where you know, your deadlines in a month or something and you haven't really done enough to meet that deadline. Like, that's really stressful. It's such a big part of your grade. So I think being organized is such an important thing. And I think also prioritizing your academic career, and your future is more important than social events in fourth year. I think for me, I definitely kind of put a pause, or a semi pause on like social events. So yeah, just focusing on your grades and being organized - these are my top tips.

Andrew:

Very nice. So the university is very impressed with the speech you've given. And the good news is, they are giving you a free dinner anywhere in Edinburgh that you would like to go. If you could have anywhere in Edinburgh as a free dinner, where are you choosing?

Katherine:

I think I will definitely be choosing Hawksmoor. They're like a steak restaurant in I think George Street or somewhere in the new town. And they're really nice, very fancy, very expensive as well. I was there once for like, my friend's birthday dinner. And I really enjoyed it. So I mean, if the Uni is sponsoring it, and if it's free, I definitely would take Hawksmoor.

Andrew:

I mean great choice. I've never been to a steak house myself, but I've always wanted to go, would it be steak and chips you're going for?

Katherine:

Oh, for sure. They have like little like side dishes as well. So you can, if I'm not wrong... like I don't remember much. But I think you can pick like, like mashed potatoes or whatever. Like there's different little sides and they're all really really good. So but no, chips are defo my go-to.

Andrew:

The question that I want to know from you is, who would you bring with you to Hawksmoor? You can bring one person with you. Who is that person going to be?

Katherine:

Honestly I'm just gonna go for my dad. Like I would bring my dad, he is really big on steak. Like he would always be like the person making steaks at home. He also loves like red wine. I think it's just like a passion. Like he's like so snobby about it as well - I'm kidding. But I think he'd really appreciate a place like Hawksmoor.

Andrew:

So is having steaks with your dad something that you've done for quite a while before you came to uni?

Katherine:

Yeah, I think I would say so. Because he does make it... well, I think he used to make it every week. So it's like a frequent thing that happens in my family.

Andrew:

If you had to choose between steak made by your dad and Hawksmoor. What are you choosing?

Katherine:

My God, Andrew, that's such a hard question. No its not, I'm choosing Hawksmoor. You gotta gotta get professional steak.

Andrew:

I mean, so fair. Like, you know, if I choose between my parents cooking and something made by Gordon Ramsay, I think everybody would choose Gordon Ramsay. Yeah. That's really

sweet:

you're gonna take your dad to Hawksmoor and have steak and chips. But before you go back on the train, you're going to visit your favorite place in Edinburgh. So where would you go?

Katherine:

I don't know if this is like a basic answer, but I really really like Calton Hill. It's just, I feel like I really like going on walks but at the same time I'm not like someone who would go on hikes or anything so Arthur Seat is very much like out of the question for me. But like a place like Calton hill you get like a nice walk up, you get nice views and the sunsets at Calton Hill, like they're so beautiful. So I think Calton Hill for sure is one of my favorite places in the city. And I think that that's also because I take so many people up there - every time like friends from home visit. I'm always like, okay, let's go to Carlton Hill for the sunset. And yeah, like I've had dates there before as well, so it's like a very nice like special little place.

Andrew:

I think Carlton Hill is quite unique in that it's a viewpoint over the city, but it's not necessarily too much of a hike to get up to.

Katherine:

Yeah, exactly. Like it's pretty accessible. Especially for someone like me. I don't really like walking like uphill for an extended period of time. So it's perfect for me.

Andrew:

Yeah. Do you go the gradual route? Or do you go up the stairs to get to the top as quick as possible?

Katherine:

I get up the stairs. Like, I like it just quick and easy. Just up the stairs.

Andrew:

I'm exactly the same. I go up the stairs and then I'm at the top and it's all done. I can just see the view from there. Oh, and Carlton Hill is is featured in... Have you ever watched Sunshine on Leith?

Katherine:

No...

Andrew:

You should.

Katherine:

Is it like a movie or a TV show?

Andrew:

It is. It's it's a movie musical with all the Proclaimers songs, and it's based in Edinburgh, and they go up Carlton hill at one point.

Katherine:

Okay, okay, okay, okay. Okay, I'm adding that to my list. That sounds really nice.

Andrew:

It's so good. It's really heartwarming, like, it's just kind of a feel good film.

Katherine:

I like I really like me a good feel good film. So I will definitely be watching that. Thank you for your suggestion.

Andrew:

Oh, no problem, because like, you can find a map online, I think, of all the different places that they go to because... obviously, obviously they go to Leith, but they also go down the Royal Mile, do a big bit on Princes Street towards the end. It's, it just kind of gives you a quick tour of Edinburgh. And now that you've done your four years here, you can be like I've been there. I've been there. I know where that is.

Katherine:

Oh, okay, I'll definitely be watching that. That sounds really nice.

Andrew:

Yeah, I absolutely love that film. Well, you have completed your Multi Story there. You are hopefully going to be working as a junior solicitor in five years time. And then you'll travel back to Edinburgh on the train - we're gonna go in first class in the quiet coach so that we can't get distrurbed but we get all of the benefits. You've given your speech to everybody, followed by a nice steak with your dad at Hawksmoor. And then to finish off you're gonna go to Carlton Hill to see the sunset. I think that's a really sweet story you've got there.

Katherine:

That's so cute.

Andrew:

Well, thank you very much for sharing that with us. But before you go, we have a surprise question for you.

Katherine:

Oh, no... I have not rehearsed this one.

Andrew:

Honestly, don't worry. Every guest gets a surprise question and it's all from either an alumni or a staff member that's relevant to their degree, or their time at uni. So yours is coming from an alumni called Erin who studied medical law and ethics and graduated in 2018. And she did her degree online and resides in Canada. Okay. And she is asking you, what role do you believe the University of Edinburgh will play in your future?

Katherine:

I think maybe providing me with like the network that I need to kind of either further my career or just expanding my professional, like network, because I think like a lot of the solicitors who work within Scotland, a lot of them obviously have graduated from the Edinburgh law program. So just kind of having a similar background to them. And just being able to connect like that. I think it'd be quite special just being like the foundation for, you know, many, many networks that I can potentially form.

Andrew:

Yeah, absolutely. I think it's quite unique there, that you say that... that a lot of lawyers do come from the Edinburgh law program. It's quite are a sought after degree to get into right?

Katherine:

Yeah, for sure. Like, even throughout my vacation schemes, like the internships that I did this past summer, I found that there was like a decent amount of like - my supervisors were Edinburgh uni alumni. And, yeah, so it was just really nice. And they would ask about, like, professors, and I might Yeah, I was helped by them too. And it was really just like a nice little bonding moment to have,

Andrew:

Does it feel quite nice to be able to relate to the sort of same stresses and modules that you've completed together and understand what knowledge you would all have?

Katherine:

Yeah, definitely. And it's like a shared trauma thing.

Andrew:

Well, thank you very much for that. Katherine. You've been a fantastic guest. A really nice story and a quite heartwarming Multi Story Edinburgh. So thank you very much.

Katherine:

Thank you. It's my pleasure

Andrew:

Did you notice when my microphone started working again? If not, go back and see if you can. Anyway, thank you very much to Katherine for being such a good guest for me. All I'm saying is I hope by now she's watched the amazing movie musical that is Sunshine on Leith because it is fantastic. We in the alumni team wish Katherine all the best in her future as she graduates from the university. Thank you all for listening to Multi Story Edinburgh, which you can stream online at our website www.ed.ac.uk forward slash alumni forward slash new hyphen graduates. Or you can stream it wherever you usually find your podcasts. You can find the alumni team on Instagram at Ed alumni or on Twitter, maybe x at Edinburgh alumni. Thank you for listening to this episode. See you next time for another Multi Story Edinburgh, class of 2023.