Episode 87: Burning Questions

In this special episode, Matt talks to Kirsten Roche from the University Careers Service. She helps him answer some of our graduates’ most pressing questions.

Multi Story Edinburgh has been created and produced by the Alumni Relations team at the University of Edinburgh. If you are interested in telling your story, please get in touch and let’s talk!

All opinions expressed are those of the individual and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Edinburgh.

Music
Detective Begining Adventures by KonovalovMusic. Sourced from Tribe of Noise.

Transcript

[Theme music]

Matt  00:01

In this season of Multi Story Edinburgh, we've delved into our graduates future, what kind of path they are anticipating for themselves, and how they now deal with that all as they move on from University. My efforts to counsel and console during our recordings could, of course, only go so far. That's why I reached out to Kirsten, a careers expert here at the University, and she helped me answer some of our graduates most pressing questions.

Kirsten  00:28
So, my name is Kirsten Roche, and my job title is Careers and Employability lead. My role specifically focuses on developing the career services support for graduates. So, I work on ensuring that we target the right graduates with the right support. I also still get to work one to one with our graduates through our graduate coaching provision, and that's probably one of the highlights of my week, is getting to actually see and speak to graduates and support them with their careers.

Matt  01:00

We're going to get into our into our main body of our conversation today, and that's kind of doing the remote graduate coaching. So, what you're used to? So, we have five questions from my guests on season six of multi-story Edinburgh, and I got them to ask anything career related. So, we're going to start with first one from Brigid.

Brigid  01:22

I think I would ask, how do you how do you set goals for yourself, kind of post-graduation, and kind of, how do you measure success? Because I think throughout uni and before that, everything's kind of set up, your path is a little bit more clear. And so, I think it's a weird thing to have to go out and kind of set your own goals. So, I'd say, how do you how do you kind of set those for yourself, and how do you make sure that you're progressing in the direction that you want to be?

Kirsten  01:52

I think this is a great question, and I think it shows kind of real determination to think like that at this point in your career. And so, I would say, partly in some in a lot of roles in a lot of organisations, the goal setting is inbuilt into kind of continuous professional development through things like the annual review process. And so, for example, if you work for the University of Edinburgh, we've just gone through our annual review process, and everybody has to set goals of what you want to do. And I think that that's a great way to do it, because it naturally involves speaking to your line manager, who often you need that person to support. And I think it depends on where the why the kind of goals are. Are they in your personal life and developing your career? Kind of in the personal life, or is it in work? And if it's in work, I think using those formal structures is a great way to do it. If you don't have formal structures, some smaller organisations might not. And then it could be something to speak to your line manager about and say, would it be possible to, like, once a quarter, have more of a check in about my development, and I'm going to write myself some goals, and it would be great if you could support me in some of these areas. This is what I want to do in the next few months. And a good line manager will think that that's really proactive way to go about things. It could be that it's in your personal life with it, you are just taking that approach of saying, Okay, well actually, what do I want to do in the next period of time? And I would recommend using the smart format for goal setting, and that stands for Specific, Measurable, Achievable, Relevant and Time bound. And it's a really good way little structure, basically, of setting goals. And so, I'll not go through them all. You can Google them and have a read about them, but basically, it's making sure that your goal is manageable in that it's not so you might say, well, my goal is to be whatever the top accountant in the UK, right? Well, where do you start with that? Because that's not a that's not a very manageable or specific goal to have. So, it's trying to say, well, what would be the first step in that? And I would in terms of time bound, make it less than a year, probably three to six months. What can you achieve in that period of time? How will you know when you've achieved it? So, making it very open ended isn't particularly helpful either. So, you have to know, yes, I've reached that goal, and I can tick it off the list. And then often when you reach one goal, it's like climbing mountains. You see the next, you see the next kind of peak, and that's where you head for next. So, I would very much recommend using the kind of smart goals, and how do you measure success? I think is personal, isn't it? What success means is so personal to all of us, and I think as students, you will have understood more about what success looks like to you. Your first graduate job is just another step in what is your career, and that lasts throughout your life, and what successes might change as you move through that career.

Matt  04:42

So moving on to Ben's question.

Ben  04:44 

Maybe what I'd ask is, what skills should I be be focusing on developing, moving from the uni lifestyle into a more a more corporate setting? You know, I think a lot of the technical skills are obviously covered by what. You do in in uni, but the, you know, the environment of an office or a workplace is quite different.

Kirsten  05:07

Yeah. So, I think as students, you will have been developing and honing lots of skills that are really transferable. So, one of the first things to do is to kind of say, well, okay, maybe take a stock take and say actually, what skills do you have? And look at your full university experience. And I think one of the things I notice in working with graduates is often people don't recognize that they've developed a particular skill or in particular context. So, I think even at the application process for jobs, it's really important to look at what did you do? So, from your part time job working in a supermarket right the way through to like, writing your dissertation and things like that, you will have developed skills in all of the things you've been doing. So really think about what did I develop and where, and where are the good examples of that? And then from doing that, you can start to say, Okay, well, I think I've got a bit of a gap here. When you're applying for a job, usually they'll have a kind of shopping list of skills that are important in that job or a role profile, use that to then say, Okay, here's what I've know that I've got in my audit, and then here's actually what you're looking for. And I might not be so good in this particular area, so kind of thinking, Okay, here's some areas that are job specific that I think I need to work on. A lot of that will have come out in the application process, because when you're applying, you have to kind of often do that matching, of saying, this is what I'm good at, and here's examples of where I've used those skills before. And so, I think go through that kind of auditing process, don't undersell or undervalue yourself, because you will have loads more skills developed in loads more context than you probably realize. If you're struggling with that, come into the career service and speak to us. I think another area that commonly can trip graduates up is just understanding and the skills and professional etiquette that are important in the in the organization that you're going to work in, and what they value is important. And again, that can really vary by sector and organizations. It's about trying to to understand your organization a little bit, so understanding yourself, but also, I think having a period of just kind of watching when you first start in a role, just to understand what's going on. And I think the final one is around commercial awareness. And we have resources on our be professional section of our graduate resources for graduates and that you can look on for this, but commercial awareness is basically just understanding the organization that you work for and understanding that the industry that you're in. And again, it's something that you probably developed through the application process, but definitely really helps to continue to develop. And particularly if you've maybe taken a job and you don't know anything about the industry, just kind of took it because it looked interesting, or it looked interesting, or it came up, and that's quite common for graduates try and develop a bit of knowledge about well, what is actually going on here, and am I interested in it and things like that.

Matt  07:49

Maybe this will tie in with this next question.

Ammir  07:52

So, we always talk about common mistakes that students make when they start university, and I'm very curious if there are any mistakes that graduates make when they first start their grad job.

Kirsten  08:04

Yeah. So, some similar advice, but I think, firstly, I would say mistakes are part of careers and part of life. So don't overly worry. We all make mistakes at work. You sometimes you will go home thinking, why did I do that? That was that was not my best day, or whatever, that's fine. The vast majority of employers will understand and appreciate that. I think the important thing is to reflect and to understand, Okay, why did that mistake happen? And how do I make sure it doesn't happen again? Mistakes are how we learn. It's part of jobs. It's part of careers. So don't agonize over mistakes. Accept them as part of the process, which they very much are. And I think it is really important to be reflective and try to take time when you're first starting out in particular but at any point in your career to say, Okay, what's going well here, what hasn't gone well here, and where there has been a mistake, as painful as it is, to try and reflect on that and unpick, okay, what could I have done differently, so I think that's embrace the mistakes. Basically, I think a common mistake. I'm not sure if I'd use the word mistake, a common kind of pitfall for graduates, particularly, I've worked with a lot of graduate interns and things like that over the years, is not understanding the organization and the work culture properly, and I think it is taking that pause at the start. Don't feel the pressure that you have to go in and make an immediate impact, but to take a little bit of time just to observe and see. What are the norms here in this organisation, so things around, even simple things, of what's the starting time and the finishing time? What are the typical things that people are wearing? How long are people taking for lunch? I know people before who've just taken very long lunches, and then that starts to rub people up the wrong way, because they're kind of like, why is this person taking too long a lunch? How formal are emails? So, are people using lots of emojis and emails and things like that? So just picking up on those things, and if you're not sure, ask, it's not a sign of weakness, it's a sign of strength, and it means that those mistakes are less likely to happen. And so, I think watch, observe, try to understand the culture. Often, I think graduates feel a pressure to go in and make an impact, and that's where sometimes tensions can start to arise. And we've got lots of resources on moving into work, which I think are really useful around these kinds of initial pitfalls, and yeah, so that's what I would advise in terms of, yeah, trying not to make mistakes.

Matt  10:31

Yeah, being okay with mistakes.

Kirsten  10:33

Being okay with them, accepting them. They are very much part of life.

Matt  10:36

Now moving on to Toby's question, perhaps this varies sort of industry to industry, but I think it's good question.

Toby  10:44

So I was just wondering, what's the best way to start networking in an industry that you've got no connections to?

Kirsten  10:52

Yeah, so I think networking can take different forms. So, it's about kind of meeting people within that industry, once you're in a job, potentially so in an organisation, to start to meet people, to develop your career. It can also be really useful in terms of supporting you, getting a foot in the door in a particular organization. And there are particular industries where jobs aren't regularly advertised. So, a classic one is kind of media and things like that, or where there's they're infrequently advertised, and it's really good to have a network to be able to tap into that so it can be used as a way of getting a job, as well as once you're in to develop your profession. I think the keys to it are having a bit of tenacity, not expecting any immediate results, and it's a long game, the networking game. For some people, it is incredibly natural. And they go into a room and just see, oh, I'm excited. What conversations am I going to have? And for me, I go into a room and think, can I hide in the toilet? I don't want to talk to anybody. So, I find it really difficult, and have to force myself, but I know I'll maybe prepare, prepare, like topics of conversation and things like that, before I go in. In terms of actually meeting people, the first thing I would do would be to think about, do you have any connections? So here they said, where you have no connections in the industry at all. And sometimes that does happen. In my experience, it's pretty rare. Throughout your time at university, you will probably have met people who've met people. It's that thing of like seven stages of separation that we all are linked to each other in some way. So, it's trying to think that an activity that I sometimes do with students and graduates is to get them to actually write on a bit of paper me in the middle. And then who do I know? So, I've got people I've lived with, who's in their families. I've got tutors, who do they know? I've then got people I've worked with, who do they know, and it's linking it on so you might not know them and immediately, but then who are in the circles around there. So do that process, because networking is always easier, where you've got a warm connection, so where you can get that, that's really great. So, I would do that, and even some people maybe put on social media. Or if you've got, like, a really chatty relative, like, if your mom's always out there saying, get people to talk about you and what you're doing and say, well, this, you know, Matt, is trying to get ahead in such and such an industry. Do you know anybody in that industry put it out on LinkedIn or whatever else, and just get people talking about it, because you probably will know somebody who can help you? And it's not necessarily about knowing 100% this person is doing exactly the job I want to do. Might just be that they work in that an organization, that's an organization you're interested in, and then they can introduce you to somebody else, and always when you're speaking to people or connecting with people, and so maybe might send them a message on something like LinkedIn or an email with your CV. It's often about asking for advice, I think, then asking outright for a job. Yeah, and it's much easier for people to give you advice than it is to give you a job. But for you, you're building that connection, and you're building up the industry awareness and all of those things which are really, really useful. And at the end of any conversation, I would always ask the question of, is there anybody else that I can get in touch with, to then continue your networking journey? If that really doesn't work and there is nobody, then I think there, you have to remember that you are part of this amazing alumni network community across all University of Edinburgh graduates. LinkedIn is a really good way to access that. If you Google LinkedIn alumni tool Edinburgh, it will come up with this tool where you can search by industry, employer location to see who's out there and connect with them and say, you know, I'm a I'm a recent graduate at Edinburgh. I'm looking for some help at getting into such and such an industry people want to help, and they like, especially helping kind of the people coming up through the university. So, I think that that's a really good, effective way to do it as well.

Matt  14:50

Amazing. So really, using everything you've you've got, from LinkedIn to your own mother, maybe.

Kirsten  14:58

Absolutely.

Matt  15:00

Moving on to Jenna's question she's asking.

Jenna  15:03 

I guess one I would imagine it's on a lot of new grads minds. But just like some practical ways of combating imposter syndrome, because I know it's something a lot of people struggle with, not just new grads. Yeah, things you can do, especially looking to start working in the near future, just how I can, like, practically fight that off.

Matt  15:29

How to deal with imposter syndrome. So, yeah, a real buzzword around careers, or early careers. Yeah, what can you tell us about this?

Kirsten  15:36

Yeah, I think this is a great question, and you're right. It is a total buzzword. And I think it is true at multiple points in our careers. And many, many of us feel like we've had imposter syndrome. I know I feel like that too.

Brigid  15:53

So I think it's, it very much.

Kirsten  15:55

is a common thing that doesn't necessarily make it any easier, but I think be easy on yourself, that it's this is a very normal way to feel, in particular, when you're moving maybe from the university setting and an education setting into the world of work is unfamiliar. You probably don't really know what you're doing, and that's fine, that's to be expected. And so, try and sort of seek a little bit of support, I think again, to kind of come back to that reflection, being reflective on how you're feeling first of all, because it might just manifest itself as just feeling a bit rubbish about work, to try and think, Okay, well, what's what's driving this, what's making me feel not great about work? And try and identify, are there particular situations and scenarios here that's making this worse? So, try and really investigate with yourself of what's going on. And I would if you had a good relationship with your line manager, raise it with the line manager, particularly if you can start to use tangible results. So it could be, when you're going into large meetings, for example, you really get a sense of it, and you don't want to speak up and things like that. So, talking to your manager just to even flag it that that's something that's going on for you. I think you have to kind of stick in with it a little bit. One thing that I found has really helped me is mentoring. And I would really encourage graduates to seek out mentors, either formally, so your employer might have a formal structure for kind of finding a mentor. You might have got one as part of your induction, or informally, I think most of my mentors have been pretty informal, where people just take a bit of an investment in you or and give you advice, and you can kind of build on that, get them, you know, take them out for a coffee once a month, or whatever it is, a different relationship to the relationship with your line manager, and I think that can be really important for things like dealing with imposter syndrome. It gives you a safe space, or it should give you a space, safe space where you can talk to somebody about what's driving this, and also maybe discuss different strategies of how you might be able to address it, that you could try different things out in a meeting where you're feeling really that it's really strong sense of imposter syndrome, and I think again, this thing of remember what you're bringing? So graduates quite often talk a lot in the application process about what they're going to get from an employer, and it is a lot about what you're going to get, and you're going to get development and all this kind of stuff. But also, you bring a huge amount of knowledge, fresh perspective, energy into an organization, and so don't diminish that and forget it. Think about what you can what you can bring in as well.

Matt  18:35

How many years after you graduate, say, can you, can you turn back to someone like yourself?

Kirsten  18:40 

Yeah, so you can continue to use the University's Career Service for two years, and that's all of our services. So, you use it as if you're a current student. So, you're welcome to come along to fairs or come along to talks and use my career hub. You can use all of our support, just as you would do as a current student, but we also have additional support for recent graduates that that's really targeted at that group, and so that includes their graduate career coaching, which I mentioned, which is specifically for graduates from undergraduate degrees, and just to provide that little bit of intensive support and an opportunity to work with the same member of staff over a period of weeks, which I think is really great. And we also provide fortnightly careers newsletters, so throughout summer for undergraduates, and then around the sort of autumn, winter period for postgraduate taught graduates. And I work as well on the multi-story newsletter, which accompanies this podcast for our recent undergraduate graduates, and has some careers content in it. We have graduate web pages and graduate online toolkits for people to work through at their own pace. So, lots and lots of support. So, I would encourage people to keep using it. Obviously, I am biased. I work for the career service, but it really is, while it's free to access, you won't get free support like this anywhere else once that period of time is over.

Matt  20:02

Yeah well, so I've been in this role. I've been checking out all the stuff myself, and I, yeah, I couldn't agree more. If there's one piece of advice you could give to graduates, maybe it's more like a sentiment or something to go by. What would you say?

Kirsten  20:20

Good question. I would say, don't be afraid. I often work with graduates who are become almost paralysed by this kind of fear of making the wrong decision. And I would kind of argue that in life and career, there aren't really many wrong decisions. You make a decision, and there always is a there's positives and negatives in any decision, and it's how you deal with it after it happens. I think kind of the worst decision is making no decision at all. And so, I think go for it, weigh up your options and think about these things. But I think don't let yourself be too afraid to actually take any sort of action. You can undo any bad career choice. You can get a different job and things like that. So, there's ways out of it, and that's one of the reasons we provide support for two years is kind of if you, if you make a decision and it doesn't go to plan, you can come back to us a year out of uni and say, oh, I really, I don't like this job. Whenever I have those conversations, those graduates will always have elements of that job that they can say, actually, there was this little bit that I did like, and also, it's really useful to know I don't like any of this stuff. So, every decision has has positives coming from it.

Matt  21:33

Yeah, I think the fact that the Careers Service is open for two years after, yeah, it speaks volumes as a reason why it is because it's that transition phase, and it could be that long. Could be even longer, but you're there if we need obviously, we've been focusing on recent graduates and that stage of things. But for myself, going into my final year, what would your advice be in approaching your final year of studies, whilst we all have in our mind a bit after so we want to do really well at uni studying, but we're very conscious of the future and after the safety of an institution. So, what would your advice be for approaching your final year of studies?

Kirsten  22:14 

So, I think it is a really high-pressure year. It has the potential to be high pressure, and adding career into the mix can sometimes be too much. So, I think go easy on yourself is probably the first thing I would say, make sure that you give yourself space for your well-being. In terms of career, I would definitely say trying to do something in kind of September, October, so early in final year is going to pay dividends as you move through, because you're going to get busier things like discover careers. Our big career fair is usually on in kind of week two or week three of final year. Come along to that, no matter what stage you are in career planning, we can help you at that fair. And graduate schemes tend to open kind of late August, September. So that takes people by surprise sometimes that it's that far in advance. And have a look there. If you do decide, do you know what? It's too much to think about this, I'm going to focus on academics and then come to it in kind of spring summer. That's fine, and we have a lot of support around that. And that's a choice that a lot of people make. I think it's then just accepting that you're not you're highly unlikely to walk straight into a job at that point. You're going to have to have a period of months where you say, Okay, going to think about what I want to do. I need to apply for stuff and all those kinds of things. Yeah, but you can do that later on as well, and apply for graduate schemes the year after you leave and and things like that. So again, it's this thing about don't be afraid the opportunities will still be are still there. It's just factoring in a little bit of time. And you might think, Okay, well, I'm going to have to work in a bar for a while, while I find my feet, and that's okay as well. So I think advice for final year just be, go easy on yourself. But if you do want to do some career stuff, do it front load it and do it early in the year and but throughout the year, I think fine finalists come to kind of careers, and we're there throughout that time to help

Matt  24:01

Great, great to know. Thank you very much for your time and all your advice. I'm sure plenty of people will be finding that very useful. So, thank you.

Kirsten Roche  24:09

No problem. Thank you.

Matt 4:14 

So, there we have it for now, our questions have been answered, but as we know full well, they'll just keep on coming. So, if you would like to talk about your own future, have your own questions answered and own worries relieved. The Careers Service is here to help, and I promise you, it's cool to talk about these things you.

Transcribed by https://otter.ai